【CXO观点】前华为人力资源副总裁吴建国：关于人才培养的9个答案

Q1.华为的人才管理方法很好，但是具体要怎么衡量人才工作的效果呢？很多时候很难有定量的东西衡量人才工作到底做得怎么样，毕竟人才工作是一项长期投入，短期看不到效果。

人才管理是一项战略性投资，短期难以见效，但是它有几个评价指标是非常重要的。

第一，优秀员工的主动流失率。优秀员工主动流失率越来越高，肯定不是什么好事，因为你的人才密度会越来越低。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

如果你的人才管理，让优秀人才或者重点岗位人才的主动流失率越来越低，这个肯定是好的。

第二，人岗匹配度越来越高。

第三，人效每年至少以10%的速度增长。创新业务可以忽略不计。

我看了一下，华为这些年，除了川普打击带来的特殊情况以外，从1996年到2019年，它一直保持着非常高的增量，人效从60万到440万。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q2.十几年的老员工担任关键岗位，新招聘来的管理者在老员工的排挤下一直流动，怎么改变这种现状？

我们先假设你招的新人是基本胜任的。有一个管理上的基本问题，就是排异，就像你把世界上最好的肝移植到身上，也会出现排异反应。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

首先，这里面最关键的决策是什么？是老大（公司老板）要营造一个减少排异的氛围。如果老大营造不了，这个问题就很难解决。

第二，要强制地指定一个能把他扶上马送一程的、让他有降落伞的人。这个人有可能是老大，也可能是另外一个高管。主要帮他解决两个问题，一个是对战略和业务的理解，也就是对“事”的理解，再一个就是对“人”的理解。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

第三，这种管理者，不要让他一下就到一号位上。你可以给他这个offer，但是给他一个阶梯缓冲一下，可以让他先做一个副总或者助理，然后3个月以后再逐步转过去。

这三招用了就可以，如果这三招不行，最大的问题肯定是老大的问题。

Q3.老员工不肯带新人，但自身技术过硬，公司拿他没办法，怎么办？

这个问题不是只有你们公司存在，这是全中国公司的老大难问题，就是“教会徒弟饿死师傅”。这个问题怎么解决？CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

还是以华为为例。华为1998年也遇到过同样的问题，当时的解决办法是，把人才培养纳入管理者考核，而不单是考核管理者业绩。

在华为，专家级的技术高手和所有管理者，如果不能培养接班人，或者不能培养人才，就不能被提拔。

华为为了强化这件事，在当年最高层领导的任职资格组成里， 把35%的权重都放在了培养干部、培养人才上。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

好多人问任正非说，我把活干好，把战略和经营搞好了不就行了吗？

任正非说不行，你搞好了现在是OK，以后就不OK了。你走了怎么办？事业怎么后继有人？我们就是要矫枉过正。你们如果都愿意培养人才了，这项权重可以再降下来。

经过20年，现在华为这个权重就没了。为什么？因为华为的管理者，从“猪头小队长”，到“龟田中队长”，到“山本大队长”，专家从中级专家到高级专家，大家都愿意培养人才。这是需要一套机制来推动的，非常重要。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

“软的”也很重要，比如说教学相长，但是光靠“软的”不行，一定要来硬的。中国的环境不太支持梯队建设式的人才培养，这一点你一定要记住。

Q4.团队成熟度较高，老员工多，人员成本高，想要优化团队提效降本，但很难决定人员去留，怎么办？

老员工躺平，在所有公司都是一样的，这个问题确实不好处理。有两种情况，一个是体制内和体制外。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

体制外你来“猛的”是OK的体制内不OK。体制内的模式，最合适的不是裁员，是做调岗，就是给他一些非常严峻的岗位，这些岗位可能不是最有价值的岗位，他们如果在那里做得不好，也不会对公司带来很大损害，如果他不愿意做辞职，公司也无所谓。

体制外的方法就多一点。我就拿华为的方法举例。

第一，华为每年都有任职资格标准。员工都不是不进则退，是进步慢了就退。你原来是三级，过两年标准提高了，那你就变成二级了，就得去二级岗位。

第二，华为的干部有强制的10%末位淘汰，在末位10%就不能再当干部了。你每年都会害怕自己是那10%，这个概率是很高的。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q5.整合跨部门团队后，怎么精简提效？

首先，要看你的组织设计是不是有问题，比如说，有的时候出现“三不管”，有的是两个人交叉管，你把它捋清楚，就能提升一部分效率。

第二，研究人效，一定要有一个可比的人效提升标准。举个例子，你可以把公司业务分成两块，一块是成熟性业务，提升人效是有价值的；一块是创新业务，人本来就少，而且很难预判人效，可以先不管。

成熟业务一定要有一个每年人效至少提高10%的底线，这个底线不要交给人力资源部去实现，你要把这个目标放到团队身上。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

如果团队管理者发现活的数量上不去了，就像华为，五个人的活，四个人干，提效20% ，你不要减少工资总和，要把本来五个人的钱，全给这四个人，这样大家都赚了。

Q6.如何判断员工的价值观是否与公司匹配？

当年联想问过我一个问题，说联想评价责任心，一级是完全没有责任心，二级是有一点点责任心，三级是有部分责任心，四级是有较强的责任心，再往上是有很强的责任心，就不知道怎么评了。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

那华为是怎么评责任心的呢？看行为，就跟行为面试法一样，把价值观也落在具体的行为上。而且，价值观评估，也可以建立一套分级的行为标准。

很简单，比如说评价责任心，第一级叫被动不执行，就是我推你，你都不动，这叫一级责任心；

第二，我推他一下，他动一下，这叫二级责任心；CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

第三，我不用推他他就能动，这叫三级责任心；

四级责任心，是他主动承担困难和挑战型的工作；

五级责任心，就是有些新的岗位，或者风险岗位，他哪怕会丢乌纱帽，失去既得的利，还愿意做，CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

这就叫五级责任心。这都是行为评价，你往周边一看就评出来了。

而且任正非还加了一句，高层管理者必须具备五级责任心，中层管理者必须具备四级责任心，基层管理者必须具备三级责任心，这就叫行为评价。

Q7.快速发展中的创业公司，如何在校招时吸引人才？

我把这里边的核心点拿出来：CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

第一，愿景吸引。

你是创业公司，一定要激发他向往大海的那种梦想。任正非当年把郑宝用搞过来的时候，华为只是一个贸易公司，郑宝用在清华读博士，他去北京亲自找郑宝用，跟他说中国通信设备市场面临“七国八制”的惨痛局面，说我想和你一起干一件大事——让中国人用上自己的产品，把世界列强赶出去。郑宝用除了被民族情怀打动，也被任正非的诚意打动。

这里我也想告诉你，老板亲自谈，对小公司吸引优秀人才，是一个非常朴素但重要的方法，千万不要忽视它。

第二，成长激励。

什么叫成长激励？就是成长空间对人才的吸引。越是优秀的人才，一般越不会局限于短期利益，他们会更看重未来的成长。你可以把一个可感知的成长规划，摊给对方看。

当然，如果你的公司还没有建立完善的职级体系，也是有一些动作可以做的。比如最直接的一点，小公司吸引大厂员工时，可以给更高的职级和权限。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

再比如，你也可以更具象地展示，优秀人才在你们公司的晋升速度。与成熟企业相比，高成长性的创业公司在个人成长空间上具有更大的优势。

第三，分享激励。

小公司在吸引良将的时候，需要通过跟员工分享长期利益的方式，让员工从“打工者”心态转向“合伙人”心态。

分享长期利益，一般做法就是用股权或期权来激励。当然，股权或期权的设计，相对比较复杂，往往需要聘请专业咨询公司和律师机构来做个性化方案，但是有个大原则要把握住，就是激励设计要么不做，做就要能真正起效果。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q8.如何快速识别一个销售是否值得花时间培养？

假设这个人三观没问题，你只需要看一个东西——人际理解力，就是他能不能快速知道对方想要的，这个是销售的第一素质。

我观察过华为所有的营销高手，能干 20 年以上的全是人精。他的表达能力可能并不强，但是理解人的能力非常强。

我在课里叫这种人“敦厚的诈骗犯”，我用这个词不太好，我想表达的是，他很能知道别人需要什么，能每一句话都说到人心坎里。

关于人际理解力，你可以按以下5级来评价，华为就用这招把营销团队的选人准确率提高到了95%。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Ⅰ.不能完全理解他人的直接表达；

Ⅱ.能够理解他人的直接表达，但仅仅停留在表面意思层面；

Ⅲ.理解他人的真正想法，能抓住他人尚未表达的思想和情感意图；

Ⅳ.深刻理解他人的想法，能预测对方后续可能做出的行动反应，并做好相应的对策准备；

Ⅴ.能够理解导致他人态度、行为与处事方式的深层次环境原因，并提供力所能及的支持与帮助。

Q9.贸易公司的销售部门以业绩来衡量胜任率，职能部门和售前交付部门的贡献不易衡量，如何设计胜任率的重点指标？

首先这里面你犯了两个错误：CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

第一，以业绩衡量胜任力，这个是错的。因为业绩有可能是天上掉馅饼，不是他做出来的，而是他领导完成的。胜任力是胜任力，业绩用KPI或者OKR衡量，胜任力用关键行为分解。

第二，每个部门都有能力要求。以人力资源这样的职能部门为例，我说两个培训考核的指标，一个是关键岗位的及时到岗率，一个是培训后，人才密度或者人岗匹配度的提升率。

还有搞组织、搞激励的，激励以后效果能不能看出来？这些实际上都还是业绩指标。我们应该考核的是能力。CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

那人力资源需要什么能力？你只能做一些执行性的工作，就是初级；能做一些模块设计，就是中级；能做多模块，你就到了高级；能做整个人力资源体系建设，你就到了更高级。这是基于专业能力的，不是基于业绩。

翻译：

Recently, Wu Jianguo, former vice president of Huawei Human Resources, answered a number of talent management questions from students in the broadcast room. We have compiled 9 of the most representative questions and answers to share with you. It is also recommended that you join Wu Jianguo’s “Huawei Talent Management Course” and improve your team’s ability together with more than 14,000 students who are already studying.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q1. Huawei’s talent management method is very good, but how to measure the effect of talent work? Many times it is difficult to have quantitative things to measure how well the talent work is doing, after all, the talent work is a long-term investment, short-term can not see the effect.

Talent management is a strategic investment that will not yield results in the short term, but it has several evaluation indicators that are very important.

First, the active turnover rate of excellent employees. The active turnover rate of good employees is getting higher and higher, which is definitely not a good thing, because your talent density will be lower and lower.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

If your talent management makes the active turnover rate of outstanding talents or key positions lower and lower, this is definitely good.

Second, the matching degree of people and posts is getting higher and higher.

Third, human efficiency is growing at a rate of at least 10% per year. Innovation business is negligible.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

I took a look, Huawei over the years, except for the special circumstances brought about by Trump’s crackdown, from 1996 to 2019, it has maintained a very high increase, from 600,000 to 4.4 million people.

Q2. More than ten years of old employees hold key positions, and the newly recruited managers have been moving under the crowding out of old employees. How to change this situation?

Let’s assume you’re hiring someone who’s basically qualified. There is a basic problem in management, which is rejection, just like if you put the best liver in the world into the body, there will be rejection.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

First, what is the most critical decision? It’s the boss who wants to create an atmosphere that reduces rejection. If the boss can’t build it, it’s hard to solve.

Second, it is mandatory to appoint someone who can lift him up on a horse and give him a ride, so that he has a parachute. This could be the boss, or it could be another executive. It mainly helps him solve two problems, one is the understanding of strategy and business, that is, the understanding of “things”, and the other is the understanding of “people”.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Third, this kind of manager, do not let him immediately into the number one position. You can give him the offer, but give him a step cushion, you can let him start as a vice president or assistant, and then three months later gradually transfer.

These three moves can be used, if these three moves can not, the biggest problem must be the boss’s problem.

Q3. Old employees refuse to bring new people, but their own skills are excellent, the company can not take him, how to do?

This problem is not only your company exists, this is the problem of all Chinese companies, that is, “the apprentice starved to death.” How to solve this problem?

Take Huawei again. Huawei also encountered the same problem in 1998, and the solution at that time was to include talent training in the evaluation of managers, not just the evaluation of managers’ performance.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

In Huawei, expert-level technical experts and all managers cannot be promoted if they cannot train successors or train talents.

In order to strengthen this matter, Huawei put 35% of the weight on the training of cadres and talents in the qualification composition of the top leaders at that year.

Many people asked Ren Zhengfei, I do a good job, the strategy and management is not on the line?CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Ren Zhengfei said no, you do well now is OK, later is not OK. What if you leave? How can a career be succeeded? We’re trying to overcorrect. If you are willing to cultivate talents, this weight can be lowered.

After 20 years, Huawei’s weight is now gone. Why? Because Huawei’s managers, from “pighead small captain”, to “Kameda Squadron leader”, to “Yamamoto Battalion leader”, experts from intermediate experts to senior experts, everyone is willing to train talents. This is something that needs to be promoted by a set of mechanisms, which is very important.

“Soft” is also very important, such as teaching and learning, but only rely on the “soft” can not, must be hard. The environment in China is not very supportive of echelon building, which you have to keep in mind.

Q4. Team maturity is high, there are many old employees, and personnel costs are high. I want to optimize the team to improve efficiency and reduce costs, but it is difficult to decide whether to stay or go.

Old employees lie flat, it is the same in all companies, this problem is really difficult to deal with. There are two situations, one is inside the system and the other is outside the system.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Outside the system you come “fierce” is OK within the system is not OK. The model within the system, the most appropriate is not to lay off employees, is to do job transfer, is to give him some very severe positions, these positions may not be the most valuable positions, if they do not do well there, will not bring great damage to the company, if he is not willing to resign, the company does not matter.

A little more outside the system. Let me take Huawei’s approach as an example.

First, Huawei has qualification standards every year. Employees are not not progress or retreat, progress is slow to retreat. You used to be level 3, and after two years the standards are raised, then you become Level 2, you have to go to level 2.

Second, Huawei’s cadres are forced to be eliminated at the bottom 10%, and they can no longer be cadres at the bottom 10%. Every year, you fear that you are in the 10%, which is a very high probability.

Q5. How to streamline and improve efficiency after integrating cross-departmental teams?

First of all, to see if there is a problem with your organizational design, for example, sometimes there are “three regardless”, some two people cross pipe, you make it clear, you can improve some efficiency.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Second, to study human effectiveness, there must be a comparable human effectiveness improvement standard. For example, you can divide your business into two parts. One is a mature business, where improving human effectiveness is valuable. One is innovative business, there are fewer people, and it is difficult to predict the effectiveness of people, you can leave it alone.

Mature businesses must have a bottom line of at least 10% improvement in performance per year, and this bottom line should not be left to human resources to achieve, you should put this goal on the team.

If the team manager finds that the number of jobs does not go up, just like Huawei, five people’s work, four people do, improve efficiency by 20%, you do not reduce the total salary, you should give the money of the original five people to these four people, so that everyone earns.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q6. How to judge whether the values of employees match those of the company?

At that time, Lenovo asked me a question, saying that Lenovo evaluated the sense of responsibility, level 1 is no sense of responsibility, level 2 is a little sense of responsibility, level 3 is a partial sense of responsibility, level 4 is a strong sense of responsibility, and then above is a strong sense of responsibility, I do not know how to evaluate.

What does Huawei say about responsibility? Behavior, like behavioral interviewing, places values on specific behaviors. Moreover, values assessment can also establish a set of graded behavior standards.

It is very simple, for example, to evaluate the sense of responsibility, the first level is called passive non-implementation, that is, I push you, you do not move, this is called the first level of responsibility;CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Second, I push him, he moves, this is called secondary responsibility;

Three, he can move without me pushing him. That’s level three responsibility.

Level 4 responsibility is that he takes the initiative to undertake difficult and challenging work;

Level five is when there are some new positions, or risky positions, he is willing to do even if it means losing his job, losing his vested interests,

It’s called level five responsibility. It’s all behavioral evaluation. You can tell by looking around.

Moreover, Ren Zhengfei also added that senior managers must have five levels of responsibility, middle managers must have four levels of responsibility, and grass-roots managers must have three levels of responsibility, which is called behavior evaluation.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q7. How to attract talents for a rapidly developing startup?

Let me take out the core point on this side:

First, vision attraction.

You’re a startup. You have to inspire him to dream of the ocean. When Ren Zhengfei brought Zheng Baoyun over, Huawei was just a trading company, Zheng Baoyun was studying for a doctor at Tsinghua University, he went to Beijing to personally find Zheng Baoyun, and told him that China’s communication equipment market was facing a painful situation of “seven countries and eight systems”, and said that I want to do a big thing with you – let the Chinese people use their products and drive out the world powers. In addition to being moved by national feelings, Zheng Baowith was also moved by Ren Zhengfei’s sincerity.

Here I also want to tell you that the boss talks in person, for small companies to attract excellent talent, is a very simple but important way, do not ignore it.

Second, growth incentives.

What is growth motivation? Is the growth space to attract talent. The more talented people are, the more they are generally not limited to short-term interests, and they are more focused on future growth. You can lay out a perceptible growth plan for each other.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Of course, there are steps you can take if your company doesn’t already have a well-established rank system in place. For example, the most direct point, when small companies attract large factory employees, they can give higher ranks and authority.

For example, you can also show, more concretely, the rate of advancement of top talent in your company. Compared with mature enterprises, high-growth startups have greater advantages in terms of personal growth space.

Third, share incentives.

When small companies attract good talent, they need to move employees from a “worker” mentality to a “partner” mentality by sharing long-term benefits with employees.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

The usual way to share long-term benefits is to incentivize them with equity or options. Of course, the design of equity or options is relatively complex, and often needs to hire professional consulting firms and lawyers to make personalized plans, but there is a big principle to grasp, that is, incentive design is either not done, and it must be really effective.

Q8. How to quickly identify whether a sale is worth the time to cultivate?

Assuming the person has no problem, you only need to look for one thing – interpersonal intelligence, that is, his ability to quickly know what the other person wants, which is the number one quality in sales.

I have observed all the marketing masters of Huawei, and those who have been capable for more than 20 years are all talents. His expression skills may not be strong, but his ability to understand people is very strong.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

I call this kind of person in the class “sincere fraud”, I use the word is not very good, I want to express that he is very able to know what others need, can say every word to people’s hearts.

Regarding interpersonal understanding, you can evaluate according to the following 5 levels, Huawei has used this method to improve the selection accuracy of the marketing team to 95%.

I. Inability to fully understand the direct expression of others;

ⅱ. Can understand the direct expression of others, but only stay at the surface level of meaning;CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Iii. To understand the true thoughts of others, to grasp the thoughts and emotional intentions of others that have not yet been expressed;

Iv. Deeply understand the ideas of others, can predict the subsequent actions and reactions of the other party, and make corresponding countermeasures;

V. Be able to understand the underlying environmental causes that lead to other people’s attitudes, behaviors and ways of doing things, and provide support and assistance within the capacity.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Q9. The sales department of a trading company measures the competency rate by performance, and the contribution of functional departments and pre-sales delivery departments is not easy to measure. How to design the key indicators of competency rate?

First of all, you made two mistakes here:

First, it is wrong to measure competence by performance. Because performance may be pie in the sky, not by him, but by his leadership. Competency is competency, performance is measured by KPI or OKR, and competency is decomposed by key behaviors.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

Second, each department has competency requirements. Taking a functional department such as human resources as an example, I said two training and assessment indicators, one is the timely arrival rate of key posts, and the other is the improvement rate of talent density or person-post matching after training.

There are organizations, incentives, incentives after the effect can be seen? These are actually performance indicators. What we should measure is ability.

What are the capabilities required for human resources? You can only do some executive work, is the primary; Can do some module design, is intermediate; If you can do more modules, you will be advanced; If you can do the whole human resources system construction, you will reach a higher level. It’s based on expertise, not performance.CXO UNION-CXO联盟cxounion.cn

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