【CEO观点】沃博联CEO罗兹•布鲁尔: 放下手机，听听员工的声音

罗莎琳德（罗兹）·布鲁尔（Rosalind Brewer）是《财富》500强公司中仅有的两位黑人女性CEO之一，曾在山姆会员商店、星巴克、沃尔玛担任过一系列高层职位，现在沃博联任职。她谈到了进入一家新公司或新行业的挑战，以及从第一天开始表现出能够胜任你的工作所需要的自信。她说，在你成为领导者之前，首先要让自己处于学习的位置。她曾在星巴克的汽车餐厅工作，也曾负责沃尔玛的卡车物流。“我愿意以退为进，从那时起，我的职业生涯开始真正爆发。我处于学习模式，但我为了向前走而后退了一步。”

《哈佛商业评论》总编辑殷阿笛在本期“工作新世界”系列视频中与布鲁尔谈到了:

·包容与公平（员工感受到被关注和被倾听），与多样性指标同样重要

·如何确保员工感到自己得到赋权并且热爱他们工作的地方

·全面学习一门业务的重要性，即使这意味着职业生涯的横向变动。

下面视频为访谈的第一部分：

ADI IGNATIUS: Roz, welcome to the show and thank you very much for being with us.

殷阿笛：罗兹，欢迎来到我们的节目，非常感谢你来到这里。

ROZ BREWER: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

罗兹·布鲁尔（即罗莎琳德·布鲁尔）：谢谢。我很高兴来到这里。

ADI IGNATIUS: Let’s start with your career. You have had a series of top jobs at Sam’s Club, at Starbucks, now at Walgreens Boots Alliance. Talk about the challenges of walking into a new company, a new industry in some cases, and projecting the kind of confidence that you need to be able to do your job from day one.

阿迪：我们从你的职业生涯开始聊吧。你曾在山姆会员商店、星巴克担任过一系列高层职位，现在在沃博联工作。可以谈谈进入一家新公司、或者在某些情况下是进入一个新行业面临的挑战吗，如何展示出从第一天开始就能做好自己工作的自信？

ROZ BREWER: Great. That’s a very good question, especially now having walked into a healthcare company in the middle of a pandemic, and I think that was a pretty gutsy move and every day it’s proven to be true. But I will tell you that I have been fortunate to really accumulate so many different learnings over my career, and I’m pretty adamant about making sure that I am clear about my role, what my intent is, and how do I bring together my toolbox.

罗兹·布鲁尔：很好。这是一个非常好的问题，特别是在疫情期间进入一家医疗保健公司，我认为这是一个非常勇敢的举动，而且每天都在印证这一点。但我要告诉你的是，我很幸运，在我的职业生涯中积累了这么多不同的知识，我非常坚定地确保我清楚自己的角色、我的目的，以及我要如何整合自身的能力。

I think the one thread that I can pull through all of my roles and opportunities is my personal leadership, and that’s the way I show up first and foremost. Because most of these business problems that I face in these leadership roles, it takes character, it takes guts, it takes problem solving, and when I bring that basic toolkit to bear in these different roles it has been proven effective for me every time.

我认为贯穿我所有角色和机会的一条主线是我的个人领导力，这是我表现的首要方式。因为我在这些领导角色中面对的大多数商业问题，都需要性格、勇气，还有解决问题的能力，当我把这些基本的工具运用到不同的角色中，每次都被证明是有效的。

The other thing I will tell you is that whenever I take on a new role, I become a real student of the business. I remember when I joined Walmart after being with Kimberly-Clark for such a long time, and being in consumer products, and going into retail. My job was based in Atlanta, Georgia, but I decided to move myself to Bentonville, Arkansas, and go on a learning journey for 90 days. And I stayed in a little small hotel and came into the home office there and really studied them during what I call the honeymoon period, and it was the best thing I could’ve ever done. I meet people. I learned more about retail. And I really put myself in a learning position and not in a position initially of leadership, and I chose to learn and be an advocate and open-minded about what the opportunities were ahead of me.

我还要告诉你的另一件事是，每当我担任一个新角色时，我就会成为该行业一个真正的学生。我记得我在金佰利工作了很长一段时间后加入沃尔玛，从事消费品行业，进入零售业。我的工作地点是乔治亚州的亚特兰大，但我决定搬到阿肯色州的本顿维尔，开始一段为期90天的学习之旅。我住在一家小旅馆里，到当地的沃尔玛总部办公室去，在我称之为蜜月期的时间里认真研究他们，这是我做过的最好的事情。我见到很多人。我学到了更多关于零售的知识。我真正把自己置于一个学习的位置上，而不是一开始的领导地位，我选择学习并成为倡导者，对我面前的机会持开放态度。

ADI IGNATIUS: As a Fortune 500 CEO you are in a very elite group. As a black female CEO in that group you are truly in rarefied territory, so how do you balance the pressure, the scrutiny, the expectations being practically the only person like yourself in these fields?

殷阿笛：作为《财富》500强的CEO，你属于非常精英的群体。作为这个群体中的黑人女性CEO，你也确实处于稀有领域，那么，作为这些领域中几乎唯一如此的人，你如何平衡压力、审视和期望？

ROZ BREWER: I will tell you sometimes it’s a lonely position because you don’t see yourself in different environments that you’re in, and then I look at myself personally and say, what can I do to change this because it could be difficult at certain times? I think that the environment is opening up more to people recognizing the differences and appreciating the differences.

罗兹·布鲁尔：我想告诉你，有时这是一个孤独的位置，因为我看不到自己在其他不同的环境中，然后我看着自己说，我可以做什么来改变这种情况，因为有些时候这可能很难，但我认为环境正在变得更加开放，让他们认识到差异，欣赏差异。

Many times I am called upon and asked to give my opinion on diversity issues, and I will be honest with you: I am as frank as I possibly can be, because I do think I hold a unique position. When I get in these settings I take advantage of an opportunity to learn and educate those around me, because I can feel it when they’re unfamiliar with me or my culture. I don’t hide my culture. I talk about it very openly. I feel like that is almost my second reason for being. Everybody has their purpose in how you get into a situation or an environment, but I take advantage of it and do everything I can to teach and expose people to my culture and who I am.

很多时候，我都会被邀请就多样性问题发表看法，坦白地说，我尽可能坦率，因为我确实认为自己拥有独特的立场。当我进入这些场合时，我会利用一切机会来学习和教育我周围的人，因为他们不熟悉我或我的文化时，我是有感觉的。我不会隐藏我的文化。我会非常公开地谈论这件事。我觉得这几乎是我存在的第二个理由。每个人在进入一种境况和环境时都有自己的目的，但我利用了这一点，尽我所能，让人们了解我的文化以及我是谁。

I learned early in my career, I’d say maybe five to seven years out of college, that I really wanted to bring my whole self to work so I don’t cover up my culture at all, and I think that that’s helpful for me because they know how to count on me and what the expectations are in terms of interacting with me.

我在职业生涯的早期就学会了这件事，也许是大学毕业后的五到七年，我真的想把完整的自己投入到工作中，所以我毫不掩饰我的文化，我认为这对我很有帮助，因为他们知道在哪些方面可以依靠我，在与我互动时抱有何种期望。

ADI IGNATIUS: I’m guessing throughout your career you’ve often been the only woman, maybe the only person of color, in a room full of executives. You talked about bringing yourself, but can you talk a little bit more about how you manage that situation and how you make it work?

殷阿笛：我猜在你的职业生涯中，你经常是一屋子高管中唯一的女性，也许还是唯一的有色人种。你谈到了自身情况，能不能多谈谈你是如何处理这种情况的，以及你是如何做到这一点的?

ROZ BREWER: Yes. I really do look forward to the day where I’m not really ‘the only’ in these rooms and environments, and I’m doing a lot personally to try and make that happen. The way I deal with this is really I’m no different than other individuals in the room, and I try and share that as well. My accomplishments come from hard work, come from exposure. One of the things I find myself doing, fortunately or unfortunately, is I have to run a few people through my resume because I think they look at my titles and say, does she really do the work, how did she get there? But I have some absolute real lived experiences.

罗兹·布鲁尔：好的。我真的很期待有一天，我不是这些房间和场合中真正的“唯一”，我自己正在非常努力地实现这一点。我处理这种情况的方式是，就是我真的和房间里的其他人没有什么不同，我也会试着分享这一点。我的成就来自于努力，来自于呈现自我。幸运也可能不幸的是，我发现自己在做的一件事是，我不得不让一些人看我的简历，因为我认为他们看到我的头衔后会说，她真的做了这份工作吗，她是怎么做到的?但我有一些绝对真实的生活经历。

When I was at Starbucks I worked the drive-thru window. When I was at Walmart I had three trucks at night so I could learn distribution logistics, warehousing, at those companies. So, I’ve done the worst and the best of the jobs. Sometimes I have to remind people of that. And it gives me credibility that I’ve not been a token. I’ve not been granted these jobs. I’ve absolutely had to work very hard to get where I am.

当我在星巴克时，我在免下车窗口工作。在沃尔玛时，我要在晚上负责三辆卡车，所以我可以在这些公司学习分销物流、仓储。可以说，我做过最差和最好的工作。有时我不得不提醒人们注意这一点。这为我带来了可信度，企业不是为了装点门面而象征性地授予我这些职位。我绝对是通过非常努力的工作才有今天的地位。

And so I find myself doing that. It doesn’t bother me. I’m hoping, I’m an optimist, and I hope that is not what the next person has to do, but for now I find myself having to really go on a deep dive in terms of my experience and do a lot of storytelling about why I believe in what I believe.

所以我在做这样的事，但这并不会困扰我。我希望，我是一个乐观主义者，我希望下个人不用再做这些事，但就目前而言，我发现自己不得不真正深入理解自己的经验，并讲很多关于我为什么相信我所相信的事情的故事。

I’m on the Business Roundtable, and we’re getting into some really courageous conversations around the new infrastructure bill. I happen to have a lot of experience in the space of what it takes to move goods across the United States, and I’ve been fortunate enough to maybe share a little bit of that, and maybe people didn’t realize that I had a background in that as well, because you can’t be in retail and not understand supply chain and logistics.

我是商业圆桌会议（Business Roundtable）的成员，我们正在围绕新的基础设施法案进行一些真正具有勇气的对话。我碰巧对在美国各地运输货物有丰富经验，我很幸运可以分享一些看法，也许人们没有意识到我也有这方面的背景，但你不可能从事零售业而不了解供应链和物流。

ADI IGNATIUS: Let’s talk more broadly about workplace diversity. As you know, in the corporate world we’re all trying to move the needle on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that has been imperative since the murder of George Floyd. I wish it didn’t have to be because of that, but that’s where we are. What’s your view on how companies can pursue a DEI strategy that truly has meaning?

殷阿笛：让我们更广泛地谈一谈工作场所的多样性。如你所知，在企业界，我们都在努力推动多元化、公平和包容性，自从乔治·弗洛伊德（George Floyd）谋杀案以来，这已经势在必行。我希望不是因为这个，但我们的处境就是如此。对于企业如何追求真正有意义的DEI战略，你有什么看法？

ROZ BREWER: So, it’s interesting. When the George Floyd incident happened I actually thought I knew it all and I had been doing a good job in DE&I. And I quickly realized that even myself, who’s been a huge proponent of it, myself who is a double minority, myself a mother of a young black male, I thought I understood this. But I realize that I didn’t. I realize that I had not been asking all the right questions. I had not been focusing on the parts of our environment and our social environment that are very much broken.

罗兹·布鲁尔：是的，这很有趣。乔治·弗洛伊德事件发生时，我真的以为我了解一切，我在DEI方面一直做得很好。而我很快意识到，即使是我自己，作为一个坚定的支持者，作为一个双重少数群体，作为一个年轻黑人男性的母亲，我以为我理解这个。但我意识到并非如此。我意识到我没有问出所有正确的问题。我没有关注我们的环境和我们的社会环境中那些严重受损的部分。

I think, myself included, we have been focusing on the D of DE&I and not equity and not inclusion. And I say that because what really happened with the George Floyd incident is that I don’t think people understood the race issues that are happening in our country. Those that are left out and those who don’t see a way out of their current situation. But we do see putting numbers in place and hiring numbers. But have we asked the questions, how can someone survive off of minimum wage? And where is our country on great education and access to healthcare?

我认为，包括我自己在内，我们一直在关注DEI的D，也就是多元化，而不是公平，更不是包容性。我这么说是因为乔治·弗洛伊德事件真正发生的原因是，我认为人们没有理解我们国家当下所面临的种族问题。那些被排除在外的人，那些想摆脱现状却找不到出路的人。但我们确实看到相关数据摆在那里，和雇用人数。但我们有没有问过，一个人怎么能靠最低工资生存？我们国家在获得良好教育和获得医疗方面，情况怎么样？

And also, it made me think back. I took it personally, when all of that was happening. As you can imagine, I didn’t know George Floyd and not many of us did. But I tried to put myself in the shoes of him and of his family. And I think about the work that I was doing at Walmart. I was just so adamant about clearing the way and thinking about, “How can I close in on food deserts.” Right? If people have proper food and access to the best price, the best cost in food. So, I did everything I could do to put Walmart stores in the right zip codes. That was my focus. But was I listening to, “Take it one level lower, Roz.”, is what I said to myself. And say, “So if you put the food right near them, and there’s still not proper nutrition and proper healthcare in those places, what’s causing them to not be able to thrive and rise above the minimum wage job, and go to the next level, and the next level?”

而且，这也让我回想过去。所有这些事情发生时，我把它当成了个人的事情。你不难想到，我不认识乔治·弗洛伊德，我们中没有多少人认识他。但我试图把自己放在他和他的家人的位置上。我想到了我在沃尔玛做的工作。我想尽办法开辟思路“我怎样才能接近食物荒漠（food desert）？”（编者注：食物荒漠通常指居民难以获得新鲜健康食品，或健康食品价格超出居民消费能力范围的地区）能否让人们有适当的食物，并能获得最好的价格，最优惠的食物成本。因此，我做了能做的一切，把沃尔玛商店放置在恰当的地点。这是我的重点。但是，我心里的另一个声音在说：”再下沉一些，罗兹。”，并且想，”那么，如果你把食物放在他们附近，而这些地方仍然没有适当的营养和适当的医疗保健，是什么导致他们不能发展，无法获得超越最低工资的工作，从而提升一个层级，再提升一个层级？”

Because, that’s the history that we know in the United States: give someone their start and then they take it to the next level. And that’s because we haven’t done enough work to study and think about, what happens in someone’s life, when you’re single parenting more than one child, and you’ve got to care for that child? And it’s more than cost, it’s about their self-esteem. And so we began to look at things like, how do you feel about yourself and are we developing that in people?

因为，这就是我们在美国知道的历史：给某人一个机会，他们就会有更大的发展。这是因为我们还没有在研究和思考上下足功夫，比如当你是单亲父亲或母亲，并且抚养了不止一个孩子，而你必须要照顾孩子们时，你的生活会发生什么变化?这不仅关乎成本，还关乎人们的自尊。所以我们开始关注，你的自我感觉如何，我们是否在人们身上培养了这种感觉?

And so I came back. At that time when George Floyd’s situation was happening, I was with Starbucks. And we began to do work on providing mental health access for communities, for all of our employees, and making that accessible. We began to think about what it means to really teach and train someone. Are you giving them training materials? Are you teaching them how to learn? And recognizing that people learn differently?

所以我回来了。乔治·弗洛伊德事件发生时，我在星巴克工作。我们开始为社区以及所有员工提供心理健康咨询服务，并且让大家使用这些服务。我们开始思考真正的传授和培训意味着什么。你是在给他们提供培训材料吗？你在教他们如何学习吗？然后意识到人们的学习方式有所不同？

For me, that whole situation said that we’ve been putting numbers on the board from a diversity standpoint, but we’re not creating equity. And then there’s a piece around inclusion. And I would tell you from an inclusive standpoint, we have not created environments where people feel like they can bring their whole self to their opportunities in front of them. We don’t recognize from where they’ve come from, and give them the same, fair chance. And give them an environment where they feel listened, seen. Listened to and seen. And we don’t do that. We hadn’t been doing that well.

对我来说，整体情况表明我们一直从多元化的角度在董事会上公布数字，但我们没有创造公平。然后还有围绕包容性的部分。我想告诉你，从包容性的角度看，我们还没创造出一种环境，让人们觉得自己可以全身心投入到面前的机会当中。我们不知道他们来自哪里，也没有给他们同样的公平机会，更没有给他们提供一个感觉自己被倾听、被关注的环境。我们没有这么做。我们一直做得不够好。

And so at Starbucks, a group of us, the leadership team, we made it our business to make sure that, when we are in stores, we are talking to people and not talking at people. And we’re doing more listening than talking. And I had already had the practice of never walk into a retail unit as leader and have your mobile device out. I never do that. I either leave it in my automobile or put it in my pocket, because I need to be present, I need to listen.

因此在星巴克，我们这群人，领导团队的人，要确保自己在商店时能够与人交流，而不是自顾自地说。我们更多地倾听，少说话。我已经有了这样的习惯：作为领导，永远不要以领导者的身份走进零售部门，然后掏出手机。我从不这样做。我要么把它留在车里，要么把它放进口袋，因为我需要在现场，我需要倾听。

But that wasn’t enough. I was listening and I wasn’t acting. And I wasn’t drilling down enough. And I think that’s the next level of leadership, is that we’re going to have to get pretty gritty about listening and acting and making people feel included in the environments that we create, as leaders.

但这还不够。我只是在听，而没有采取行动。我的了解还不够深入。我认为这是领导力的更高一层，就是我们必须在倾听和行动上表现得非常坚定，让人们感觉融入我们创造的环境中。

ADI IGNATIUS: So the first takeaway is, leaders, leave your phones in your pockets. Let me follow up on that. It seems that even when there is diverse representation, corporate cultures can produce a kind of group-think and group-speak. How do you create teams, including top-level executive teams, that are not only diverse on paper, but truly reflect the kind of diversity of viewpoints that trace varied experiences and backgrounds?

殷阿笛：所以第一个要点是，领导者们，把你的手机留在口袋里。我继续说。看起来，即使有多元化的代表，企业文化也会产生一种群体思维和群体话语。你如何创建团队，包括高管团队，让多元性不是表面功夫，而是那种能够真正反映出追踪不同经验和背景的观点多样性？

ROZ BREWER: One of the things that I think about when I’m thinking about diversity is diversity of thought. Because we can also realize that there are individuals who may not be of diverse culture, race, or gender themselves, but where is their mindset? How do they think about different cultures and different environments?

罗兹·布鲁尔：我在思考多样性时，想到的其中一点是思想的多样性。因为我们也可以意识到，有一些人可能没有多元文化、种族或性别，但他们的思维方式属于哪里？他们是如何看待不同文化和不同环境的？

One of the things that I began to do in my career is to put agile teams together. And what I mean by that is, a lot of times, you have your finance team working in their silo. You’ll have the tech team working in their silo. But what I really think works is when we create these agile teams and put them against the biggest problems to solve.

我在职业生涯中开始做的一件事是，将敏捷的团队放在一起。我的意思是，很多时候，你的财务团队都各自在孤岛上工作，技术团队也在孤岛上工作。但我认为真正有效的是，我们创建这些敏捷团队，并且把他们分配到亟待解决的最大问题上。

That’s one of the things I’m doing right now at Walgreens Boots Alliance: make sure that this organization understands, what are the biggest problems that we’re going to solve? It’s not, do we have enough technology? But is the technology fulfilling the need for efficiencies in the organization? Is it creating the right tools for our team members at stores and for our customers?

这就是我在沃博联正在做的一件事：保证这个组织了解我们要解决的最大问题是什么？这并不是我们是否有足够的技术的问题，而是技术是否满足了组织对效率的需求，对我们商店的团队成员和我们的客户来说，它是否创造了合适的工具？

So to give you an example, you can have the best strategy in the world. But if your team operates in a silo-driven environment, you’re not going to get the results that you expect. For instance, right now we’re trying to create a tech-enabled healthcare company. I have the same message for the entire group. And the biggest problem to solve is, how do we become the best performing stock in the Dow?

可以给你举个例子，你可以拥有世界上最好的战略。但如果你的团队在一个孤立驱动的环境中运作，你就不会得到预期的结果。例如，现在我们正试图创建一个科技化的医疗保健公司。我把同样的信息传达给整个团队。而要解决的最大问题是，我们如何成为道琼斯指数中表现最好的股票？

And so, when you put that team together, you are forcing finance and technology and operations and manufacturing all to be in the same room, in the same discussion, against the biggest problem to solve. And it’s not finance solving a finance problem. What that actually does: it gets the diversity of thought to happen. And then you have different people sitting around the table. And in some cases, one of the outcomes that I’ve seen is that in certain functions, we have heavier opportunity for diversity than we do in others.

因此，当你把他们放在一起，你就会迫使财务、技术、运营和制造团队，处于同一个房间和同一场讨论中，共同解决最大的问题。这不是财务人员在解决财务问题，它的真正作用是实现思想的多样性。然后会有不同的人参与进来。一些情况下，我看到的一个结果是，在某些职能部门，实现多样性的机会比其他部门更多。

I would love to see more diversity in technology. It’s coming. But right now I have a lot of diversity in finance. So I get the opportunity to put a diverse financial team to a growing diverse tech team in the room. Diversity of thought is happening around the problem to solve, and then the cultures are coming together. And hopefully, we’ll move all of those opportunities up. But it’s about creating these agile teams and putting them against the unique problems to solve. And forcing them to relate to each other and think about how to solve it.

我希望看到更多的技术多样化。这点正在实现。不过现在金融方面有很大程度的多样性。因此，我有机会将一个多元化的财务团队与一个日益多元化的技术团队放在一起。围绕着要解决的问题，已经产生了多样化的思想，然后不同的文化开始融合在一起。希望我们能提升所有这些机会。但这关键在于创建这些敏捷团队，让他们面对那些要解决的独特问题。并且迫使他们相互交流，思考如何解决问题。

Now, you may say, “Well, where does race and gender come into that?” It absolutely happens, because if you don’t have people who have the innate ability to be forced to think different about a problem to solve, they absolutely are not going to get there on a discussion with race and gender. So, you have to start where people are. People operate in their functions. Start where they are and move them to where you want the organization to go to. It proved successful for me at Starbucks. I’m replicating it again at WBA.

现在，你可能会说，”好吧，种族和性别议题要如何切入？” 它必然会发生，因为如果人们无法以不同的方式思考要解决的问题，那么他们绝对不会讨论种族和性别问题。所以，你必须从人们所处的位置开始。人们按照自己的职能行事。从他们当前的位置开始，把他们带到你希望组织发展的方向。我在星巴克这样做取得了成功。我正在沃博联复制这一做法。

CXO UNION（cxounion.cn）转载而成，来源：知乎；编辑/翻译：CXO UNIONCXO联盟小C。

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